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CaptainAwesome
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 Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:22 pm Post subject: Should we remain a member of the United Nations? |
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| Of course, I dont think we should. It doesnt seem to be any more than a bunch of third worlders acting like they should be able to tell America what to do. Its also been a tool for other developed nations to attack America. Why should we support an institution that seems to do nothing for us? |
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samjones
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Should we remain a member of the United Nations? |
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| CaptainAwesome wrote:
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Of course, I dont think we should. It doesnt seem to be any more than a bunch of third worlders acting like they should be able to tell America what to do. Its also been a tool for other developed nations to attack America. Why should we support an institution that seems to do nothing for us?
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To close to quittin' time to go into detail on the topic, but the GA has a single vote per country, doesn't matter how big the country is. Much like the US Senate.
The vast majority of the world's countries are "third world" (as is the staggering majority of the world's people), but that's a different story. The preferred term is "developing country", but I don't care whether you use the antiquated term "third world" or not. The term "third world" went out of favor when the "second world" disappeared (i.e. communism in its cold-war era form)
The United States and other large (and rich) countries still wield enormous power at the UN based on their clout.
THe United States remains a member of various UN Organs at its discretion. It would behoove you to review the UN organizational chart http://www.un.org/aboutun/chart.html and decide which of the Organs and Programmes you think that United States should cease to be a member of.
I'll be happy to discuss next week. I'm away for the holiday.
I worked for the UNDP for 5 years so I became pretty familiar with the day-to-day business there. |
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desiuny
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: Should we remain a member of the United Nations? |
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| samjones wrote:
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It would behoove you to review the UN organizational chart http://www.un.org/aboutun/chart.html and decide which of the Organs and Programmes you think that United States should cease to be a member of.
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Whatever you want to call the third world it is insulting to America to think that these people should have equal say as the United States on anything. Not to mention that we are expected to listen to their criticisms of us.
I look at that chart and i see not one of those organizations should America be involved in. Any of them that we may find useful we could just create our own separately from the UN. |
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BrooklynBrat117
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Should we remain a member of the United Nations? |
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the United Nations should be thrown out of this country. The building should be turned into condominiums. and all their delegates should have to pay back parking tickets.  |
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samjones
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Should we remain a member of the United Nations? |
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| desiuny wrote:
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Whatever you want to call the third world it is insulting to America to think that these people should have equal say as the United States on anything. Not to mention that we are expected to listen to their criticisms of us.
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We made the UN. FDR and HST. It's charter was drafted in San Francisco. If it's an insult it's one we levied on ourselves. We don't have to listen to anything anybody says. As a product of the UN system, I will say that it is my opinion that the vast majority of the people who work at the UN admire the US and its principles. They wish their country was more like the US. They consider the US their home. I heard very little America bashing in my 5 years there.
But, it it makes you mad that I said all that then just rearrange the words in yout head to sound like something that you would agree with.
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I look at that chart and i see not one of those organizations should America be involved in. Any of them that we may find useful we could just create our own separately from the UN.
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Really? Not even UNICEF? Don't you think that it's a good thing in the wake of the tsunami and the earth quake in Pakistan to at least contribute to an international organization that helps kids in emergencies? Wow!
By the way, don't bother pointing out that no one helped us during Katrina. They would have. We didn't ask for help (requistite according to UNICEF protocol) and in some cases we turned down unsolicited offers of help from other organizations.
Maybe you don't like the International Red Cross either? |
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samjones
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Should we remain a member of the United Nations? |
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| BrooklynBrat117 wrote:
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the United Nations should be thrown out of this country. The building should be turned into condominiums. and all their delegates should have to pay back parking tickets.
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One thing about the "UN Delegates" and their parking tickets that some people don't realize is that these people work for foreign governments and are are delegates TO the UN. There are UN people who also don't pay their parking tickets, but most offenses are made by foreign diplomats.
We don't have to have the UN "thrown out of this country." NYC only has to stop heavily subsidizing their rent and other business costs and they'll leave all on their own. The competition for who would be their next host city would make the competition for the summer olympics look like a game of Tiddly Winks. It would be the most damaging economic event that has ever happened to this city, 9/11 included and it would make us the absolute laughing stock of the world's major cities.
I wouldn't recommend running for Mayor on that platform.
One more thing. I'm not really a fan of the UN. I'll be happy to discuss their flaws if anyone raises one. |
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CaptainAwesome
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Should we remain a member of the United Nations? |
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| samjones wrote:
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We made the UN. FDR and HST. It's charter was drafted in San Francisco. If it's an insult it's one we levied on ourselves. We don't have to listen to anything anybody says. As a product of the UN system, I will say that it is my opinion that the vast majority of the people who work at the UN admire the US and its principles. They wish their country was more like the US. They consider the US their home. I heard very little America bashing in my 5 years there.
Really? Not even UNICEF? Don't you think that it's a good thing in the wake of the tsunami and the earth quake in Pakistan to at least contribute to an international organization that helps kids in emergencies? Wow!
By the way, don't bother pointing out that no one helped us during Katrina. They would have. We didn't ask for help (requistite according to UNICEF protocol) and in some cases we turned down unsolicited offers of help from other organizations.
Maybe you don't like the International Red Cross either?
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We are to blame for creating such a worthless organization but that doesnt mean we have to be stuck with it forever. Im sure they wish their countries were as prosperous as ours but if that cant be achieved they would like to see us brought down to their level.
No, not even UNICEF. They are only interested in filling their own pockets and supporting their own agenda. You make it like its UNICEF or nothing. If Americans cared about helping kids after natural disasters then we can do it independently of UNICEF. |
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CaptainAwesome
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Should we remain a member of the United Nations? |
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| samjones wrote:
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One more thing. I'm not really a fan of the UN. I'll be happy to discuss their flaws if anyone raises one.
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What is the UN capable of accomplishing? They said America should let the UN takeover in Iraq because they are more experienced with that. When have they been successful in forming a government? Keeping peace? They have only been successful in making money for corrupt diplomats. I dont even think its completely appropriate to use the word corrupt because thats what they are supposed to be doing. The suckers are the ones that think they are there to help the world kids.
When genocide happens in Africa what does the UN do? When terrorists kill civilians what do they do? When America or Israel attacks terrorists the UN wastes no time in condemning their actions. |
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samjones
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:19 am Post subject: Re: Should we remain a member of the United Nations? |
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| CaptainAwesome wrote:
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| samjones wrote:
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One more thing. I'm not really a fan of the UN. I'll be happy to discuss their flaws if anyone raises one.
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What is the UN capable of accomplishing? They said America should let the UN takeover in Iraq because they are more experienced with that. When have they been successful in forming a government? Keeping peace? They have only been successful in making money for corrupt diplomats. I dont even think its completely appropriate to use the word corrupt because thats what they are supposed to be doing. The suckers are the ones that think they are there to help the world kids.
When genocide happens in Africa what does the UN do? When terrorists kill civilians what do they do? When America or Israel attacks terrorists the UN wastes no time in condemning their actions.
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I repeat, the UN is a very big organization. Saying that UNICEF is failing at its mission because the UN doesn't stop terrorists from killing civilians makes about as much sense as blaming the inheritance tax on the war in Iraq. They aren't related.
You are correct that there is some corruption. I witnessed some personally. I also saw alot of inefficiency, overlapping duties, lack of competence and just plain ol' laziness.
I'm not going to defend any Secretariat sponsored peace-keeping missions that the Security Council did or did not undertake. It's not my area of expertise. I will point out that the US has a permanent seat on the UNSC and has veto power of any operations that they may authorize. Anything that they did was with US blessing. What they didn't do, well, that's another question. Are you arguing that we should scrap UN peace-keeping missions because the UN isn't agressive enough? Perhaps you think that we should give the UN more autonomy and funding as well as a permanent armed force? |
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CaptainAwesome
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Should we remain a member of the United Nations? |
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| samjones wrote:
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I repeat, the UN is a very big organization. Saying that UNICEF is failing at its mission because the UN doesn't stop terrorists from killing civilians makes about as much sense as blaming the inheritance tax on the war in Iraq. They aren't related.
You are correct that there is some corruption. I witnessed some personally. I also saw alot of inefficiency, overlapping duties, lack of competence and just plain ol' laziness.
I'm not going to defend any Secretariat sponsored peace-keeping missions that the Security Council did or did not undertake. It's not my area of expertise. I will point out that the US has a permanent seat on the UNSC and has veto power of any operations that they may authorize. Anything that they did was with US blessing. What they didn't do, well, that's another question. Are you arguing that we should scrap UN peace-keeping missions because the UN isn't agressive enough? Perhaps you think that we should give the UN more autonomy and funding as well as a permanent armed force?
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Thanks for repeating that. Still, UNICEF is failing in its mission. There is no advantage to its existing. Every penny we give them is a penny wasted.
It is corruption. It exists for corruption.
We shouldnt scrap UN peacekeeping missions. We should not be involved with them at all. However, as an additional criticism they arent effective. How to make them more effective is something im not concerned with. If i was to make a recommendation to them then i would suggest they increase their military capabilities. If they ever considered using them against America id recommend America destroys them. |
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Br00kLYNzzFinEST
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: Should we remain a member of the United Nations? |
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I think the UN is a great idea in theory. But they are many asspects that just dont work in reality.
The UN Security Council for instance...
has 5 permenent members and 10 elected members for a total of 15..
5 Perm Members:
* People's Republic of China
* French Republic
* Russian Federation
* United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
* United States of America
10 Elected:
1. Algeria (Africa)
2. Argentina (Latin America)
3. Benin (Africa)
4. Brazil (Latin America)
5. Denmark (W. Europe)
6. Greece (W. Europe)
7. Japan (Asia)
8. Philippines (Asia)
9. Romania (E. Europe)
10. Tanzania (Africa)
Of those 15 only ONE is still considered a "World Power".
Of those 15 atleast one is run by a fascist dictator who supresses free speech.
Of the core 5 one has been invaded and over ran 2x in a single century... (Some security....  )
Of the core 5 one cant even secure its own Nuclear arsenal.
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According to the Energy Department, some 603 tons of weapons-usable nuclear material --- enough to make over 40,000 nuclear devices --- is located at 53 sites in the former Soviet Union that require security upgrades.
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It seems that the only counties on the council worth their weight in armorments (for the better of the world anyway). Are the US, "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" and Japan.
Despite great strides being made in Romania since the over throw of Nicolae Ceauşesc in December '89 they arent quite with the program yet.
For the rest basically all I can say is "..."
Now This is all just 1 example of GREAT of paper, horrible in implementation.
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samjones
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Joined: Sep 18, 2005
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Should we remain a member of the United Nations? |
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| CaptainAwesome wrote:
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Thanks for repeating that. Still, UNICEF is failing in its mission. There is no advantage to its existing. Every penny we give them is a penny wasted.
It is corruption. It exists for corruption.
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Nope. Sorry, Cap'n, but it's not that easy. You cannot just say it and therefore it is true. We're all entitled to our opinion, but in this case you just charged a well respected international huminatarian children's aid organization with being corrupt and you provided zero evidence to back it up. One cannot call a person a thief and then hide behind "it's just my opinion" argument and that same principle applies to organizations as well. Go out and read up on what UNICEF does for a week or 2 and come back when you have a clue. In the meantime, I'll just assume that you're trying to get someone riled up over something. |
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samjones
Bay Ridge Socialite
Joined: Sep 18, 2005
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Should we remain a member of the United Nations? |
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| Br00kLYNzzFinEST wrote:
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I think the UN is a great idea in theory. But they are many asspects that just dont work in reality.
The UN Security Council for instance...
has 5 permenent members and 10 elected members for a total of 15..
5 Perm Members:
* People's Republic of China
* French Republic
* Russian Federation
* United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
* United States of America
10 Elected:
1. Algeria (Africa)
2. Argentina (Latin America)
3. Benin (Africa)
4. Brazil (Latin America)
5. Denmark (W. Europe)
6. Greece (W. Europe)
7. Japan (Asia)
8. Philippines (Asia)
9. Romania (E. Europe)
10. Tanzania (Africa)
Of those 15 only ONE is still considered a "World Power".
Of those 15 atleast one is run by a fascist dictator who supresses free speech.
Of the core 5 one has been invaded and over ran 2x in a single century... (Some security.... )
Of the core 5 one cant even secure its own Nuclear arsenal.
| Quote:
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According to the Energy Department, some 603 tons of weapons-usable nuclear material --- enough to make over 40,000 nuclear devices --- is located at 53 sites in the former Soviet Union that require security upgrades.
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It seems that the only counties on the council worth their weight in armorments (for the better of the world anyway). Are the US, "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" and Japan.
Despite great strides being made in Romania since the over throw of Nicolae Ceauşesc in December '89 they arent quite with the program yet.
For the rest basically all I can say is "..."
Now This is all just 1 example of GREAT of paper, horrible in implementation.
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You're missing a few key points.
1. The US has veto power (as do the other 4 permanent members). The 10 rotating members of the UNSC would be foolish to put forth a proposal that the USA would not support because it would only be vetoed. They are only doing what we allow them to do.
2. Perhaps more importantly, there's a critical distinction between voting in favor of a UNSC resolution and actually providing troops, advisers, or funding for that resolution. The USA may and does vote in favor of a resolution, but may leave the actual execution of that resolution to other countries - perhaps these are countries who are not even members of the UNSC. If the USA does commit troops, they can always back out of that committment any time they please.
3. Also not to be overlooked, there is nothing to stop the USA from sending troops to fight against the UN troops that they approved of in any specific UNSC resolution. China did that in the Korean war, for example.
The UNSC is designed more as a way for countries to discuss what international military actions will or will not be seen as provocative to the global community before they actually act. It's a good idea. |
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Br00kLYNzzFinEST
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Should we remain a member of the United Nations? |
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| samjones wrote:
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| CaptainAwesome wrote:
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Thanks for repeating that. Still, UNICEF is failing in its mission. There is no advantage to its existing. Every penny we give them is a penny wasted.
It is corruption. It exists for corruption.
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Nope. Sorry, Cap'n, but it's not that easy. You cannot just say it and therefore it is true. We're all entitled to our opinion, but in this case you just charged a well respected international huminatarian children's aid organization with being corrupt and you provided zero evidence to back it up. One cannot call a person a thief and then hide behind "it's just my opinion" argument and that same principle applies to organizations as well. Go out and read up on what UNICEF does for a week or 2 and come back when you have a clue. In the meantime, I'll just assume that you're trying to get someone riled up over something.
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Food for Oil was corrupt and run by the same agency. Id say it stands to reason by simple association that unicef could be corrupt on some level. At minimum it should be scrutinized carefully.
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samjones
Bay Ridge Socialite
Joined: Sep 18, 2005
Posts: 233
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Should we remain a member of the United Nations? |
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| Br00kLYNzzFinEST wrote:
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Food for Oil was corrupt and run by the same agency. Id say it stands to reason by simple association that unicef could be corrupt on some level. At minimum it should be scrutinized carefully.
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No, this is not correct. This would be the same as saying that the CIA is corrupt, therefore the Food and Drug Administration is corrupt by association. It makes no sense. The statement is nonsense.
UNICEF is audited by many different organizations regularly and their financial dealings are open to all member countries. The UN systems as a whole has no "confidential" information. It's all avaiable to each member country. As a product of the UNDP, I can tell you that the amount of auditing and the stringency of the auditing was so severe that even today I tend to think of every purchase in terms of how I'm going to explain it to the auditors, rather than what I'm going to use it for.
In any case, feel free to criticize the Secretariat and peace-keeping missions. I'm not defending them. I'm merely pointing out that "The UN" is a very, very big place. |
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